[MITgcm-support] seaice anomalous advection in doubly periodic domain

Mon Nov 2 11:24:25 EST 2015

Hi Martin and Ryan, thanks for super-interesting discussions below.

For the 5-50-km gray zone and the 9-12-km results of Girard et al., I wonder if
there are empirical parameters, e.g., ice strength, rheology, lead-reclosing,
air-ice and ice-ocean drag, etc., that can be adjusted to change the statistical
scaling properties of VP sea ice models — or for that matter the lack of eddying
circulation or other missing oceanographic features in the 5-50-km simulations?

Anyways, important and timely topic.
You may have seen latest study from our colleague Pierre Rampal:
http://www.the-cryosphere-discuss.net/9/5885/2015/tcd-9-5885-2015.html
(from the VP is inadequate side of the controversy).

Cheers,

Dimitris Menemenlis

> On Nov 2, 2015, at 7:49 AM, Martin Losch <Martin.Losch at awi.de> wrote:
> 
> Hi Ryan,
> 
> you only need to have a look at Dimitris et al.’s high resolution simulations to see that there is a lot of structure that already looks realistic, but we have a paper in preparation showing that with higher resolution the statistics actually improve (Girard etal use models with dx=12km and 9km). There seems to be some kind of  grey zone between 5 and 50km, where the VP rheology seems inappropriate (but we do so many inappropriate things in climate modelling).
> 
> Martin
> 
>> On 02 Nov 2015, at 16:35, Ryan Abernathey <ryan.abernathey at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> P.P.S. I hope that Ryan forgives me for contradicting, but even though the VP rheology was originally meant for large scales, it appears to work very well at very high resolution, i.e. the simulated fields show very realistic deformation statistics. There appears to be some controversy in the community, and this is not yet settled.
>> 
>> On the contrary, I would be very happy to learn that I am wrong. I am definitely not an expert on this topic. The opinion I stated comes from this paper, (supplemented by my own interpretation of the continuum derivation of the sea ice equations of motion):
>> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2008JC005182/abstract
>> which may now be obsolete. Have the results showing realistic deformation statistics with VP rheology been published somewhere?
>> 
>>> On 29 Oct 2015, at 17:58, Ryan Abernathey <ryan.abernathey at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Jean,
>>> 
>>> I think I remember Georgy Manucharyan encountered similar problems with sea ice on tile boundaries.
>>> 
>>> I don't know too much about the details of the sea ice model. But I do know that the sea ice viscous plastic rheology applies to the large-scale sea ice field (>100 km scales) is is very likely completely inaccurate for the 1km scales you are trying to model. This is a serious limitation for high-resolution ice-ocean modeling, and there is no obvious way around it until a completely new type of floe-scale sea ice model can be developed.
>>> 
>>> That being said, there are lots of people on this list doing such modeling (e.g. Dimitris). Maybe you can get some answers from them.
>>> 
>>> -Ryan Abernathey
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 11:34 AM, Jean Mensa <jean.mensa at yale.edu> wrote:
>>> Hello list,
>>> I am trying to setup an idealized ocean simulation with sea ice using the SEAICE package. The domain is a doubly periodic box (400km by 200km) which I force with a semi-idealized ECMWF forcing. Forcing is periodic in time (and space) and seems to generate the expected seasonal cycle of ice thickness and concentration. Nevertheless there seems to be something wrong with the ice advection.
>>> 
>>> 1 - ice velocities follow wind forcing for a while, and then, as ice starts growing (not sure if that is a coincidence), they stop being affected by wind forcing and transition to steady state as if purely driven by ice inertia. Ice moves at a reasonable speed, it just goes to steady state. I am not sure whether this is a numerical/physical problem or an consequence of the doubly periodic setup.
>>> 
>>> 2 - ice growth shows anomalous growth at the boundaries of the partitioning tiles. This results in a distinguishable thickness anomaly. Currently I use the same advection scheme than for tracers, a 3-rd order flux-limiter (33), and the problem persists when switching to a smaller stencil.
>>> 
>>> I am not sure whether the two problems are linked or not. The second one looks like a numerical issue but the first one could be due to my particular setup.
>>> Any idea on what's going on?
>>> Thanks!
>>> 
>>> It follows my data and data.seaice files,
>>> 
>>> ############# DATA
>>> 
>>> # Model parameters
>>> # Continuous equation parameters
>>> &PARM01
>>> no_slip_bottom=.FALSE.,
>>> eosType='JMD95P',
>>> diffKhT=0,
>>> diffKzT=0,
>>> rotationPeriod=86400.,
>>> beta=0,
>>> f0=1.4e-4,
>>> gravity=9.81,
>>> rigidLid=.FALSE.,
>>> implicitFreeSurface=.TRUE.,
>>> implicitViscosity = .TRUE.,
>>> implicitDiffusion = .TRUE.,
>>> tempAdvScheme=33,
>>> saltAdvScheme=33,
>>> viscC2Leith=1.0,
>>> staggerTimeStep=.TRUE.,
>>> nonHydrostatic=.FALSE.,
>>> readBinaryPrec=64,
>>> &
>>> # Elliptic solver parameters
>>> &PARM02
>>> cg2dMaxIters=1000,
>>> cg2dTargetResidual=1.E-7,
>>> &
>>> # Time stepping parameters
>>> &PARM03
>>> endTime=189216000,
>>> deltaTmom=240.0,
>>> deltaTtracer=240.0,
>>> abEps=0.1,
>>> pChkptFreq=8640000.0,
>>> chkptFreq=1728000.0,
>>> dumpFreq=86400.,
>>> monitorFreq=864000.,
>>> forcing_In_AB = .FALSE.,
>>> pickupStrictlyMatch = .TRUE.,
>>> &
>>> 
>>> # Gridding parameters
>>> &PARM04
>>> usingCartesianGrid=.TRUE.,
>>> usingSphericalPolarGrid=.FALSE.,
>>> delX=400*1000,
>>> delY=200*1000,
>>> delZ=2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 10, 10, 10, 10, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 30, 50, 50, 50, 50, 50,
>>> &
>>> 
>>> # Input datasets
>>> &PARM05
>>> bathyFile='topo.bin',
>>> hydrogThetaFile='theta_100_DP.bin',
>>> checkIniTemp=.FALSE.,
>>> hydrogSaltFile='salinity_100_DP.bin',
>>> uVelInitFile='u_100_DP.bin',
>>> vVelInitFile='v_100_DP.bin',
>>> &
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ############# DATA.SEAICE
>>> 
>>> &SEAICE_PARM01
>>>  SEAICEwriteState   = .TRUE.,
>>>  SEAICEuseFlooding  = .TRUE.,
>>>  SEAICE_EPS         = 1.E-8,
>>>  SEAICE_area_floor  = 1.E-5,
>>>  SEAICE_area_reg    = 0.15,
>>>  SEAICE_hice_reg    = 0.10,
>>>  IMAX_TICE = 6,
>>>  SEAICE_availHeatFrac = 0.8,
>>>  SEAICEuseDYNAMICS  = .TRUE.,
>>>  HeffFile = 'ice_thick_S.bin',
>>>  AreaFile = 'ice_fract_S.bin',
>>>  SEAICEadvScheme    = 33,
>>>  useHB87StressCoupling=.TRUE.,
>>> &
>>> 
>>> &SEAICE_PARM03
>>> &
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MITgcm-support mailing list
>>> MITgcm-support at mitgcm.org
>>> http://mitgcm.org/mailman/listinfo/mitgcm-support
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> MITgcm-support mailing list
>>> MITgcm-support at mitgcm.org
>>> http://mitgcm.org/mailman/listinfo/mitgcm-support
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MITgcm-support mailing list
>> MITgcm-support at mitgcm.org
>> http://mitgcm.org/mailman/listinfo/mitgcm-support
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> MITgcm-support mailing list
>> MITgcm-support at mitgcm.org
>> http://mitgcm.org/mailman/listinfo/mitgcm-support
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> MITgcm-support mailing list
> MITgcm-support at mitgcm.org
> http://mitgcm.org/mailman/listinfo/mitgcm-support